Sweet Sleep...

[chorton28]

Hi,
I am so happy there is a chat for just Women's hormones, that is a huge puzzle in itself.
If anyone can help me with this problem you may have my first born child. As a matter of fact, you may have all 3 and I will give you the husband too. That in itself may cure my sleeping problem.
On a serious note. The problem is I may get 2-3 hours of sleep per night. It takes a while to fall asleep, 45 min. then I sleep for 1-2 hours wake up and am up for an hour or two then get 20 min here and another 20 min there. And that is how all the nights go. I am very frustrated and feel like I am going crazy. When I am awake at night I feel a bit panicky and restless.
I am on 3 grains of Armour, have been on that for a week and half and 30 mgs of HC. I feel very good in the day when taking the Armour and HC but I know my body needs sleep to repair and all that stuff. I take progesterone cream at night, day 13-28

1. Is it too much Armour?
2. Too much HC? Coupled with progesterone cream?
3. Not enough Armour or HC?
4. Have very low testerone, do I need more to sleep? No sex drive and low blood levels of DHEA. Would testerone or DHEA help me sleep?
5. Or estrogen? I thought that makes you energized. I do not have hot flashes and I am not at all dry down there. Get a short period every 28-31 days.

At the moment I do not have enough for a saliva hormonal panel or a doctors visit. Maybe in 2 months but I would love someone's opinion on this matter?
Thank you,
Christine

[fractal1]

Hi Christine,

I'm sorry for the delay. Insomnia is just the pits. Pre-bioHRT and pre-DX days, I went to the doctor after only sleeping 2 hrs each night for 10 days to get some sleeping pills. She refused to prescribe them, said I was stressed and depressed, and couldn't understand why I was carrying out my current career path - despite me saying that I just love what I do. In my desperation to get some pills, I pointed out that sleep deprivation is a form of torture. She replied with the comment "I'm sure if someone was deprived of sleep for long enough they'd just fall asleep"



My general inkling is that your sex hormones are too low or the ratio of estrogen to progesterone is wrong. But please see my comments to your questions below:


1. Is it too much Armour?

I don't think so. Three grains of armour is not a huge dose and I would expect you to have other hyper symptoms in addition to sleep problems. Just make sure you follow the dosage increase protocol on the STTM.

2. Too much HC? Coupled with progesterone cream?
3. Not enough Armour or HC?


Do you get spotting prior to withdrawing progesterone (i.e. when you're using the cream)? Does the insomnia get worse at certain times of your cycle? Have you had sex hormones tested, including estrogen, progesterone, free testosterone, LH and FSH? Most of us find that increasing progesterone helps with insomnia.

Both high or low HC can cause sleep disturbance. 30 mg HC is not that high. It may be that you are dosing wrongly. For me, 4mg HC just before bed does the job... otherwise I can't and there is no drifting feeling associated with falling asleep.

It may not be a case of not enough, but rather, when and how much you dose Armour and HC?

4. Have very low testerone, do I need more to sleep? No sex drive and low blood levels of DHEA. Would testerone or DHEA help me sleep?

Probably the least likely cause of insomnia. Though some say DHEA helps.

5. Or estrogen? I thought that makes you energized. I do not have hot flashes and I am not at all dry down there. Get a short period every 28-31 days.

A short period would suggest low estrogen, but I would put this towards the bottom of your list of causes, particularly since you do not get hot flushes and vaginal dryness. Have you had your levels tested in recent times?


Don't bother with a saliva hormone panel if it's for sex hormones... it is extremely unreliable. Bloods are the test of choice.

Also, make sure you avoid foods high in carbohydrates (i.e. sugars) before bed.... eat something high in protein instead.

I hope this helps

[chorton28]

Thanks Ruth, I appreciate your time answering my questions.


Do you get spotting prior to withdrawing progesterone (i.e. when you're using the cream)?
I usually have a period every 26-30 days but I always spot 3-4 days before my expected period. I just thought I needed more progesterone cream. I dab a little bit on in the morning days 14-28. The same amount every morning.


Does the insomnia get worse at certain times of your cycle?
The insomnia is brutal day 13 and14 then subsudes a little and gets brutal again days 22-28.


Have you had sex hormones tested, including estrogen, progesterone, free testosterone, LH and FSH?
I have only had LH and FSH tested. My doctor wants to do a saliva, I will tell her I would like the bloods.
.


Both high or low HC can cause sleep disturbance. 30 mg HC is not that high. It may be that you are dosing wrongly. For me, 4mg HC just before bed does the job... otherwise I can't and there is no drifting feeling associated with falling asleep.
You may be right, I do not know what to dose before bed. Anywhere from 2.5 to 5. I have been experimenting with that but I can not tell what is working, the progesterone or the HC. DO you dose armour before bed? I am scared I won't even get the 30 min. I get.......What is your dosing schedule?

A short period would suggest low estrogen, but I would put this towards the bottom of your list of causes, particularly since you do not get hot flushes and vaginal dryness.
My period lasts only 3 days with heavy bleeding one or two days.
Actually, I do sweat on some odd nights leading up to my period. Perhaps this is something. BUT, I have cystic breast so badly 2 weeks before my peroid maybe this is estrogen overload?

Thank you again.....
Christine

[fractal1]

Hi Christine... it's my pleasure .

I usually have a period every 26-30 days but I always spot 3-4 days before my expected period. I just thought I needed more progesterone cream. I dab a little bit on in the morning days 14-28. The same amount every morning.

Progesterone helps with sleep and is better taken at night time. Spotting would suggest that you are not on a high enough dose. You may not be absorbing the cream adequately.

Does the insomnia get worse at certain times of your cycle?
The insomnia is brutal day 13 and14 then subsudes a little and gets brutal again days 22-28.


From puberty, I never established a regular cycle and menstruation ceased altogether by the time I was 19-20 years old. If I try to cycle sex hormones, I get insomnia at the same times you have listed. The only way I have found to get around the problem is to take sex hormones continuously. To prevent breakthrough bleeding, I have to take a higher than normal dose of progesterone.

Have you had sex hormones tested, including estrogen, progesterone, free testosterone, LH and FSH?
I have only had LH and FSH tested. My doctor wants to do a saliva, I will tell her I would like the bloods.

- Were LH and FSH high... are you menopausal?
- Yes, please make sure you do bloods.


You may be right, I do not know what to dose before bed. Anywhere from 2.5 to 5. I have been experimenting with that but I can not tell what is working, the progesterone or the HC. DO you dose armour before bed? I am scared I won't even get the 30 min. I get.......What is your dosing schedule?

There is a link to my dosing schedule in my signature below. I take a combination of pred and HC. Unlike pred, the fast releasing effects of HC sends me off to sleep within 20 minutes of taking it.


My period lasts only 3 days with heavy bleeding one or two days.
Actually, I do sweat on some odd nights leading up to my period. Perhaps this is something. BUT, I have cystic breast so badly 2 weeks before my peroid maybe this is estrogen overload?

I would try the following:

- First take progesterone before bed instead of the morning. If this doesn't work, then try increasing progesterone (still taking it at night time).
- Get serum estrogen tested.

Cheers

[chorton28]

Hi Ruth,
Thanks again for your response.
LH 3.7 (1.9-12.5) on day 3
FSH 3.5 (2.5-10.2) on day 3
They are low, right? I am 39.
Also how do you know you have hypophysitis? After each pregnancy (including miscarriage) I seemed to get worse with low pit. hormones. How do they diagnose hypophysitis?
Thanks,
Christine

[fractal1]

Yes they do appear low.

Autoimmune hypophysitis is difficult to identify in pituitary scans... so it is not easy to DX. Specialist on this condition argue that is should be highly suspected (or even DX'd) for unexplained hypopituitarism particularly when in the presence of anti-thyroid antibodies and/or some other autoimmune condition.

It's my pleasure

[chorton28]

I was looking at your personal medication and labs. I find your schedules interesting. May I ask a few questions;
1. Why the Arginine?
2. Why separate the magnesium, calcium and D?
3. Why Floradix and Ferrasorb?
4. Why the Expresso?
5. You take progest., estrogen, testesterone and DHEA all month long?
What time of day do you take estrogen and testerone? I read they use the same pathway
they may cancel each other out if taken at the same time?? Ever heard this?
6.What is H20? Oxygen? Very interesting...
7. Why not take other supplements like B complex Potassium, Vit C, amino acids etc. Or does
the Paleo do it for you?

I hope all these questions are not too much. Thank you so very much Ruth..
Grateful,
Christine

[fractal1]

I was looking at your personal medication and labs. I find your schedules interesting. May I ask a few questions;
1. Why the Arginine?

- It is an amino acids and stimulates GH secretion.

2. Why separate the magnesium, calcium and D?

- Contrary to what you might think, calcium and D don't get absorbed well when taken together
- Magnesium has 'calming effects' and is good to take a night.

3. Why Floradix and Ferrasorb?

- Ferrasorb is a high dose iron supplement. I have problems with iron and ferritin levels, despite consuming a lot of meat (inc. raw )... Unlike standard OTC iron supps, this really helps get it up.
- Floradix is a maintenance drink to allow iron absorption. It contains B12, vit B, vit C etc.


4. Why the Expresso?

- Well... I could say it is because it stimulates GH, but that is probably in response to subsequent salt dumping - which is not good. Oh well, better just admit it's because I'm naughty and just loooove coffee! ;D. But it is organic and fair trade . I avoid coffee after 2pm.

5. You take progest., estrogen, testesterone and DHEA all month long?
What time of day do you take estrogen and testerone? I read they use the same pathway they may cancel each other out if taken at the same time?? Ever heard this?

- I have never heard that estrogen and testosterone cancel each other out, but it is quite possible that one is absorbed in preference of the other... I will look into it.
- Estrogen is in patch form and provides constant and consistent release throughout the day. It is changed weekly. It does have glues that allow it to stick to the skin, but it's the only bio-identical estrogen form that I have had success with at this stage.
- Progesterone and testosterone are combined into a cream. I apply it at night time. In around a month, I'm going to trial prometrium (oral micronized progesterone) because it provides more consistent release. I will continue to take testosterone in cream form - and without the progesterone of course.


6.What is H20? Oxygen? Very interesting...

H2O is just plain water. I have a filter to get rid of a lot of the crap that is put in

7. Why not take other supplements like B complex Potassium, Vit C, amino acids etc. Or does the Paleo do it for you?

Paleo diet is high in protein and provides lots of required minerals and nutrients. I eat mostly organic or foods with a low pesticide burden index.